Joel, do you have any more information on your experiment posted anywhere? For example, I can't imagine you're using 3V POE wiring for your washing machine, but what are you using? Noah Smith has been all in on battery storage for a while now but I don't think he's actually used it for much (economist vs engineer.)
Your spaceship metaphor is excellent. If we're really looking for efficiency and resiliency, there's no better place to look.
I haven't posted anything about my system other than casual mentions in my substack. I read some of Noah's stuff, and he's very much an industrial policy guy, which I get. But these guys are too enamored with nameplate "grid efficiency" and have no practical knowledge of how much energy is wasted on the other side of the meters.
The POE system is called Genisys by Innovative Lighting in Des Moines, IA (https://www.innovativelight.com/genisys/). It uses a Cisco Catalyst 8-port UPOE switch, lighting loads operate at 24VDC. It can power loads other than lighting, but there are power limits for each switch and each port - so no washing machines connected. Innovative Lighting was by far the most collaborative supplier that I worked with. Love those guys.
Solar shingles were CertainTeed Apollo II - probably the weak spot of the system. The solar/battery system is by Outback - 8kw Radian Inverter, Flexmax 80 battery charger, PLR-200 lead acid batteries. None of CertainTeed or Outback will talk to you. They insist on going to market through reps who have distribution agreements but little experience. Frustrating.
Recovering power from the batteries is a big deal and has never been seamless when managing high demand loads like heat. I'm looking into increasing my battery storage right now, and if I were to design a new system, it would be way over-capacitized to start. It's workable, but ideally, heat and battery control should be tightly integrated to modulate depending on the battery charge condition. (I know a group that is working on this right now.) The same idea for appliances - specifically-integrated batteries at the appliance make a lot of sense.
One of the ironic things is the number of AC/DC conversions that could be eliminated even in my system. For example, the Cisco UPOE switches are powered by 120VAC. So from my own battery, the power is inverted, then rectified in the switch, with each conversion costing 7%, only one of which shows up in my measurements. Why not a 24/48VDC UPOE switch? Supposedly, one was on the drawing board, but was never brough to market. Interestingly, Tesla discontinued their DC-DC Powerwall. Seems like going backward. Again - technology readily available, but commercially-available devices not so much.
Great article Joel! I find it interesting to think about the innovations that started entire industries and shaped our world. AC vs DC was an epic battle when this all started. AC wins out because no one could figure out how to deliver DC over long distances. AC is 100's of times more dangerous to us all, has killed countless humans, requires hazardous PCB's to be hung from poles all over the world and the list goes on. DC was a great choice at the time and certainly would have taken us down a much different path. It's hard to imagine us getting off the path we are on, at least at scale, but you certainly invoke thought about where we could be. Human nature and dark money profiteers, will likely drive us headlong down our current path until we have consumed every last drop of oil, or are no longer able to breathe. I am a bit surprised, there wasn't a welding reference somewhere in your article. Welding = real work done by DC! Think of the automation simplification we could achieve if we had primary DC fed into Robotic Welding systems!
Thanks, Josh. Actually, I think the grid still has a purpose. Just not the one being imagined. Connecting large, concentrated generation (such as hydro or nuclear) to remote, concentrated loads (such as heavy manufacturing or dense population centers).
Yup - welding has gone thru a few metamorphosis, hasn’t it? I miss the industry…
Thanks for this information and the time and investment you put into it. We need to utilize the best electrical system possible. And I like the freedom to choose rather than subsides from Central Planning. Too old to change to a personal DC system now but hopefully others will be positioned to do so as time goes on. In the meantime, I'm sure a subsidized national grid will be built. There is a move to tie the West Coast and Central US grids together now.
Ah the history, Thomas Edison with DC vs Tesla and Westinghouse with AC. Makes me wonder why Musk named his EV car after Tesla?
Contact me if you do! Much of what I did was not ready for prime time, and I would make some different choices now. Self-reliance is required, because the supply and craft communities are not yet up to speed.
Joel, do you have any more information on your experiment posted anywhere? For example, I can't imagine you're using 3V POE wiring for your washing machine, but what are you using? Noah Smith has been all in on battery storage for a while now but I don't think he's actually used it for much (economist vs engineer.)
Your spaceship metaphor is excellent. If we're really looking for efficiency and resiliency, there's no better place to look.
I haven't posted anything about my system other than casual mentions in my substack. I read some of Noah's stuff, and he's very much an industrial policy guy, which I get. But these guys are too enamored with nameplate "grid efficiency" and have no practical knowledge of how much energy is wasted on the other side of the meters.
The POE system is called Genisys by Innovative Lighting in Des Moines, IA (https://www.innovativelight.com/genisys/). It uses a Cisco Catalyst 8-port UPOE switch, lighting loads operate at 24VDC. It can power loads other than lighting, but there are power limits for each switch and each port - so no washing machines connected. Innovative Lighting was by far the most collaborative supplier that I worked with. Love those guys.
Solar shingles were CertainTeed Apollo II - probably the weak spot of the system. The solar/battery system is by Outback - 8kw Radian Inverter, Flexmax 80 battery charger, PLR-200 lead acid batteries. None of CertainTeed or Outback will talk to you. They insist on going to market through reps who have distribution agreements but little experience. Frustrating.
Recovering power from the batteries is a big deal and has never been seamless when managing high demand loads like heat. I'm looking into increasing my battery storage right now, and if I were to design a new system, it would be way over-capacitized to start. It's workable, but ideally, heat and battery control should be tightly integrated to modulate depending on the battery charge condition. (I know a group that is working on this right now.) The same idea for appliances - specifically-integrated batteries at the appliance make a lot of sense.
One of the ironic things is the number of AC/DC conversions that could be eliminated even in my system. For example, the Cisco UPOE switches are powered by 120VAC. So from my own battery, the power is inverted, then rectified in the switch, with each conversion costing 7%, only one of which shows up in my measurements. Why not a 24/48VDC UPOE switch? Supposedly, one was on the drawing board, but was never brough to market. Interestingly, Tesla discontinued their DC-DC Powerwall. Seems like going backward. Again - technology readily available, but commercially-available devices not so much.
Great article Joel! I find it interesting to think about the innovations that started entire industries and shaped our world. AC vs DC was an epic battle when this all started. AC wins out because no one could figure out how to deliver DC over long distances. AC is 100's of times more dangerous to us all, has killed countless humans, requires hazardous PCB's to be hung from poles all over the world and the list goes on. DC was a great choice at the time and certainly would have taken us down a much different path. It's hard to imagine us getting off the path we are on, at least at scale, but you certainly invoke thought about where we could be. Human nature and dark money profiteers, will likely drive us headlong down our current path until we have consumed every last drop of oil, or are no longer able to breathe. I am a bit surprised, there wasn't a welding reference somewhere in your article. Welding = real work done by DC! Think of the automation simplification we could achieve if we had primary DC fed into Robotic Welding systems!
Thanks, Josh. Actually, I think the grid still has a purpose. Just not the one being imagined. Connecting large, concentrated generation (such as hydro or nuclear) to remote, concentrated loads (such as heavy manufacturing or dense population centers).
Yup - welding has gone thru a few metamorphosis, hasn’t it? I miss the industry…
Follow-up question, who makes a DC standby generator?
I know Kohler makes DC generators. I think most major manufacturers do.
Thanks...WHP
Thanks for this information and the time and investment you put into it. We need to utilize the best electrical system possible. And I like the freedom to choose rather than subsides from Central Planning. Too old to change to a personal DC system now but hopefully others will be positioned to do so as time goes on. In the meantime, I'm sure a subsidized national grid will be built. There is a move to tie the West Coast and Central US grids together now.
Ah the history, Thomas Edison with DC vs Tesla and Westinghouse with AC. Makes me wonder why Musk named his EV car after Tesla?
I think because Tesla was unconventional. He was a bit of a weirdo genius - someone Musk could identify with!
Your article (and 5-yr Project results) makes me want to design my next home. 😊
Contact me if you do! Much of what I did was not ready for prime time, and I would make some different choices now. Self-reliance is required, because the supply and craft communities are not yet up to speed.
Awww…
Thanks for reading, Peter! And don’t fret the engineering thing. I’ve always said surgeons ARE engineers, but with income tax problems.